The following contains letter written to Live Offensively Ministries by Micah, a college student in Iowa, and a response to it. He wrote the letter to Joe Baker, the ministry founder. But Jamin Hubner, an active member of L.O. wrote a full response to the letter:

Thank you for your letter Micah, you raise some great points about our ministry, and I'll try and give a brief honest response to your assertions on behalf of Live Offensively for God Ministries. But, first I'd like to provide a brief overview of the mission of our ministry to help clear any confusion you, and other readers might have.

Live Offensively was started because we believe Christianity has been placed on the defensive for far too long. We really think God's people are either going to be shaped by the culture, or they are going to shape it. The question is, then, shall we be transformed? Or shall we transform? We think the latter is a more biblical position, where as Jesus told Peter, "the gates of hell will not prevail against you." That is, the gates will not keep us out, we're going to siege the tower and bring the kingdom of God in and everywhere else, "to the ends of the earth." After all, if we don't, secularism, relativism, or any other inconsistent worldview will prevail otherwise.

Unfortunately, many Christians have conformed to the ways of the world by cultural, spiritual, and social pressures. Whether it is through abiding to popular political correctness or buying into religious pluralism that is mistakenly thought of as socially healthy, we've often forgotten what it means to be a Christian. Jesus gave us a mission to build up disciples in a community of believers, and proclaim the truth to the captives all over the world and set them free. "The truth will set you free," is a commonly quoted phrase in the evangelical community, but at what cost do we do that? What if we try and tell people what's true, and get called names, like "intolerant" or "narrow-minded," or "unloving," or "judgmental"? Well, usually Christians do one of two things in response to such resistance:

1. Sit down a shut up. We can take the world's advice and "take your Jesus somewhere else." We might play the game of "well you believe what you want to and I'll believe what I want to, and we'll all get along," until we have absolutely no awareness that time is short and we can't afford to beat around the bush.
2. Take a stand. Refuse to back down. Say very clearly – without being politically correct – what you believe and why. We will use moral terms like "right," "wrong," and "evil" because we have a moral standard to say them by. We "will not be ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation," and we will be rewarded for that. We might say quite clearly, which will most likely offend people:
3. "Pornography is for posers. It takes the strength of a real man to care for the heart of a real woman. I refuse to exploit women through pornography and I refuse to have sex before marriage, it's wrong.
4. "Abortion is mean. It is a holocaust of 4,000 innocent lives per day, and I refuse to pretend it's not happening. I refuse to turn my ear from the cries of the unborn and their hurting mothers. And I refuse to put my faith and conscience in a box when election day comes."
5. "Absolute truth exists whether you believe it or not, and the very fact that people argue against us is proof that the world does believe there is a truth worth arguing for. The Bible is true and you will be held accountable for what you believe and do on this earth. And to tell us to keep our religion to ourselves is being just as judgmental and intolerant as you claim us to be."

As you should well know, this ministry exists because one man, Joe Baker, refused to sit down and shut up. He refused to be shaped by his culture, and he proved beyond a doubt that there are fallacies being taught in public schools across America, and it is influencing our culture.

He had a vision of transformation. No big deal? Far from it, he made national news and built a legacy of living for the truth at all costs. Was he called names? Yes. Was he persecuted? Yes. Were people offended and did they think it was unloving to claim to know the real truth? Most definitely. But, Joe won the lawsuit against his own high school, people came to understand the Scriptures through his ministry, and even more people realized that the most uncool thing wasn't questioning someone else's beliefs, it was keeping silent and not questioning someone else's beliefs.

Our society longs for an absolute moral truth and a band of brothers and sisters to help defend our faith. Our country needs the gospel of Jesus Christ. Persecution has always created growth in the church, and perhaps that's why America is behind in evangelism compared to other countries – not enough people are willing to stick their necks out for what they believe. We value having an offensive (not defensive) role in society, one that is:

·       Building courageous communities of people (high schoolers) who stand together.

·       Advancing the truth with passion into the darkness of this fallen world.

·       Engaging the MTV culture – and not running from it.

·       Opening the eyes of our Generation.

Our ministry is centered around the discipleship and training of high school students nationwide. Our focus is on helping students develop a vision for their own school and then helping them build a strategy to bring forth radical change in their school or communities – and in turn affect the world. The sale of t-shirts is stage one of a much much larger vision to build an army of students from all over the US to change the world.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer for you, Micah, and everyone else who may be wondering what Live Offensively is really all about. Now, to your letter...

You wrote:

"Pornography is for Posers" and many of the other shirts directly attack the people who do these things."

That's not true Micah. We both go to the same college, and as Pastor Gorter argued quite clearly when the 2007 Equality Ride visited Dordt College, there is a necessary distinction between hating sin and hating the sinner. I can hate homosexuality without hating a homosexual, and I think the rider I hosted that day would agree with me. In fact, the Equality Ride posted several videos on youtube, one where they said we expressed a tremendous amount of "love" during their campus visit.

In the same way, I can despise Marxism, maybe Pelagianism, and a myriad of other beliefs that I just don't like for one reason or another, without hating the individual who holds to them. In fact, I have friends who think Calvinism is an evil cult created by Satan, but I don't hate them in return because I consider Calvin a great mind, and that's proof that it can happen.

I understand your concern, and no doubt, our shirts are bold and upfront. But far too often these days, every little quibble of disagreement is viewed as a person "attack." Actually, I think it has gotten so bad in the United States that no matter what a person says in response to another person's beliefs, if it isn't positive or if it doesn't agree, it's considered an "attack." I think that's absurd, and it obviously leaves no room for meaningful discussion when anyone is in a disagreement. We've done our best to express love to homosexuals we meet, even though their activist efforts have done clear harm to society and our children who are taught in school that homosexuality is perfectly normal. We've done the same towards porn-addicts and evolutionists, even though we still know porn is unhealthy in all kinds of ways and evolution is ultimately a tax-supported, unscientific,  religious scam. I hope you understand what we mean.

We're not attacking anyone. We're attacking the ideas and behaviors that produce great harm.

"As a Christian, I firmly believe that abortion, pornography and pre-marital sex are all bad things. But, I am not convinced that your method of spreading this message is the best one available."

It may not be the best way Micah, but if you know of a better one, we would love to know! Though I have to ask, how would you determine the "best" one? (because if it's by getting young Christians to publicly display what they believe on their clothing, that is, t-shirt sales, we'd probably win - at least in the North American Christian music festivals) T-shirts are very effective, hundreds of people could see a single shirt in one day, and that leads to discussion. Besides all that, it gives Christians another way of showing what they believe.

"When I look at the shirts that you are selling, I do not see any grace, I do not see any love."

When God said over and over, "if you do this, I'm going to have your friends throw stones at your head and kill you" was that loving? Most people wouldn't think so, and it really doesn't seem like it is love. But I think it is. God wouldn't have set such strict rules if he wasn't so concerned about his loving relationship with His people. In the same way, we wouldn't produce such obnoxious t-shirts if we weren't so concerned about the spiritual health of God's people.

"Love" in our culture today has been skewed into an indiscriminate bundle of cosmic kindness. It is hardly close to the definition of love we get from the Scriptures. God's commandments and our t-shirts are loving because it brings people closer to the knowledge of the way things really are. It is, as John Calvin said, like a "mirror" that shows us our problems and insufficiencies. And until we see ourself as we really are, we won't see the need for a Savior.

We have long forgotten that love doesn't mean shutting your mouth and accepting everything other people say. That's not even good tolerance, it's senseless ignorance. Any effort to stand up and say "this is right, it is the truth whether you believe it or not," aka to present a moral absolute, is dubbed as "intolerance" and unkind. But clearly, the Christian will do everything he can to the person who is struggling with pornography or what not, so he can break free from that unhealthy life of bondage, darkness, and confusion. Yes, Christians should even be willing to offend people for the sake of presenting the gospel, living for Christ, and even preserving the health of society. Jesus offended many people, the Jews, his disciples, the crowd. He even repeated that old teaching of Calvin on depravity in John 6 enough times to where they got up and left. The truth hurts, and not everyone will except it. But Jesus was loving, and he offended because he loved.

"Addiction to pornography is a powerful thing. Many men struggle with it. Many Christian men feel great shame over their struggle. Your shirts can only make them feel more shame when what they need to feel is love."

Again, it seems we have a more fundamental difference on what it means to love.

If I pull up to convenient store to start filling up my car with gas and the man next to me is smoking a cigar, I'm going to tell him politely, but clearly, "Sir, could you please put that out." Now I could care less if he's offended and says, "Mind your own business," or a more modern translation, "stop judgin!"  I will insist again, "Sir, really, you could hurt yourself and many others if you create a spark with that cigar." I don't want to offend him, but I don't care if I do because I want to do what's loving for him and others. Abortion, evolution, pornography, and all forms of homosexuality aren't helping people. Of course, I could do what many people would do in today's culture and gloss over the blunt reality and say, "Well, yeah, I accept your beliefs. You can smoke your cigar anywhere, and at anytime." That's not loving, that's actually inconsiderate, especially for the people around you.

If a person is sinning before God, he should feel extremely guilty, and I think Scripture makes it clear that the law is there for that very purpose, to be "a tutor unto Christ." It's no different for a murderer, a liar, or a heterosexual or homosexual who's engaged in a promiscuous lifestyle. We're all sinners, and shame is the right reaction to that. Our conscience bears witness to the moral law God has imprinted on every human heart (which I might add, is why certain moral absolutes have always existed, regardless of religious orientation). Unless you present the truth as it truly is to non-Christian, they will not see their offenses and won't have reason to believe in Jesus Christ. It doesn't help them to label pornography, homosexuality, abortion, or evolution as merely "unbeneficial to society." It is destroying human beings, marriages, and families across the globe, and that's why God had such strict prohibitions against those lifestyles and other specific behaviors.

Your anti-abortion shirts are seen by women who have had abortions. Do you think that it is an easy thing to kill a child? Few women enjoy abortions. Few are proud of having ended that life that was in them. Many feel deep regret. In that state of regret and pain, these women need to feel the love of Christ. They need to be drawn close to him. I can conclusively say that your shirts do not do this. In fact, they are so "offensive" that they must necessarily shut off meaningful LOVING dialogue.

Our shirt's were never designed to bring back regretful memories to women who have had abortions and have already asked God for forgiveness, and we are sorry if that has ever happened. We've talked with countless women outside abortion clinics as they've both entered and exited, and we grieve with them in the struggles they have.

We also realize that women who have had abortions have committed a crime before God (as much as anyone else I might add). Joe Baker has had many conversations with the women you speak of in the past few years in touring the United States, selling the "Abortion is Mean" t-shirts. One in particular came up to Joe at the booth and said, "I feel absolutely horrible about these shirts, I had an abortion years ago and this is so painful for me to sit here and watch all these people wearing shirts!" Joe apologized, because that was never our intention. But he told her quite honestly, "Mam, you've killed your child, and you need to ask God forgiveness." She started sobbing and came to realize, yes, I am responsible for the death of my son/daughter. Joe grieved with her and spent time talking about her past, and a great heart that was once hard, bitter, and restless became soft and peaceful.

Joe did the loving thing, he pointed her to the forgiveness that has its source in God. Glossing over her abortion as something small wouldn't be honest (and she deserves honesty). She could have never entered a life of forgiveness, peace, and freedom without coming to that realization.

"The key word there is loving. I'm sure that your shirts have promoted many conversations, but I am less sure that those conversations brought people closer to Jesus."

I'm sorry you think that Micah. Some conversations do and some don't. And you'll recall that Jesus' oratories were anything about pleasing the crowd. Time after time he was nearly killed by what he said, and many of his followers, like Stephen, were. He warmed people's hearts and offered peace and forgiveness at one point, and smashed false teachings with passionate arguments and boldness at another. We want to do the same, and find that balanced life of compassion and determination. And as you well know, we believe most Christians don't have enough boldness and determination.

A few weeks ago, a gay rights group came to my college campus (I attend Dordt College). One of the members of your team attends Dordt as well.

That's me :)

"On the day that the group came, this young man wore one of the shirts: "Jesus loves Homosexuals." I watched as some of the homosexuals in the group read the shirt. Some got amusement, some didn't, but all were offended."

You may have never met Angel, one of the transgender rider's who told me more than once he was planning to buy the shirt and wear it. Although I'm not sure if he read the back, he certainly was not offended, or at least he didn't act like it.

I guess that that makes the t-shirt a success, right? That is the goal right? Alienate those who most need to hear the gospel...

The shirt did anything but alienate people. It did what it was supposed to – created meaningful conversation. I talked with people from the Equality ride about the shirt as a host virtually all day. The point of having shirts that are offensive is to do just that – create discussion that is actually centered around issues, because most Christians don't have the guts to even do that, let alone wear a t-shirt with their beliefs on it. The point of discussion is to give Christians a chance to ask questions, so people have to actually think through their worldview. After all, most people in the US have been tricked one way or another into thinking:

l        Abortion is just the simple removal of a blob of tissue, not a holocaust of in-utero infantacides.

l        Darwinian evolution is scientific fact that is valid (it is after all, in virtually every science book in every school in America), not a religious worldview that has no empirical scientific evidence and that even Darwin didn't completely believe.

l        Homosexuality is an acceptable behavior that is just as natural as heterosexuality, not a lifestyle that has contributed to the societal collapse of marriage and family.

l        Pornography is a socially acceptable behavior, or even a recent form of socially-acceptable entertainment, not a mind-corrupting industry that exploits women, enslaves men, and destroys marriages.

The former definition of all of these things is the non-offensive politically correct understanding. And because of the culture we live in today, to say otherwise will almost always be considered "unloving," or "judgmental" regardless of whether it's true or not.

It is one thing to enter into a healthy productive conversation about real issues. It is another matter entirely to begin an attempted conversation with an offensive remark (this case, in the form of a t-shirt).

Healthy productive conversations don't just happen. That's the point. You have to be intentional about it if anything is going to happen. We've let the world push their beliefs and lifestyles into us until it's invaded almost every single home in America through the Internet, TV, and certainly into the minds of our children by public education. A few minutes of chit-chat won't correct the misunderstandings our kids have be influenced by through hours and hours of television, Internet surfing, and biology tests – year after year. Lord knows the real affect all of that has had on people, and without question, the worldview they are learning from is most likely anything but Christian.

I confronted the young man personally after the incident. I told him that I felt that his "offensiveness" was inappropriate. I told him that his shirt was a very poor testimony to the love of Christ. He countered saying that Jesus was offensive to the Pharisees. Is that what this has come to? Are you all now playing Jesus and has everyone who is imperfect Pharisees? Forgive me for being harsh, but it was the Pharisees who were the law abiding, religious folk. Don't you see! It is us, you and I who are the Pharisees! We are the self-righteous snobs who live double lives. It is us who are the hypocrites. We are the ones who show off our devotion to God. We are the ones who compete to be more holy. We have no business offending for the sake of being offensive.

I was merely making the point that Jesus isn't the all-tolerant sentimental cuddly teddy-bear and winks at sin like many Christians make him out to be. I'm simply saying that Jesus offended when he had to. Yes, we are Pharisees to an extent, but I think we are far more like the crowd, the lost sheep, the disciples if anything in the context of where Jesus makes a scene.

"Our only business is to show Christ's love. Sometimes, that involves being harsh. Sometimes that involves taking a stand against evil. Sometimes that inadvertently offends people."

And that is exactly what we are doing, Micah.

But, the core must be love of a selfless nature, a nature of servant-hood, not one of condemnation.

God condemns sinners by his law, and we present his perfect law. Yes, God condemns, we do not. The law brings guilt and conviction which leads to repentance and salvation. Presenting the gospel in that way is loving, and Christians even find life in comparing their behavior with God's standards. As the first Psalm of David says, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in season, and its leaf does not wither."

Christ himself will judge when the trumpet sounds. That is not our job.

Well, it sounds a lot like you're judging us for judging someone else. And if that's the case, "that is not our job." We do no claim moral superiority in the face of someone else's failure (which is what Jesus meant when he said "do not judge" in Mathew 7:1). If that's judging, it's a wrong way and we avoid it. But, as Jesus told us to, "make a right judgment" (Jn. 7:24),  that's what we hope to do.

There is one final problem that I have with your shirts. Why are they so limited in scope? By the look of the selection, it would seem as though God only cares about porn, premarital sex, homosexuality and abortion. Where are the shirts that read "Free Tibet" or "Free Palestine" or "Stop the Torture in Guantanamo" or "Protect God's Creation, Stop Global Warming", or "End Global Poverty", or "Fight Against AIDS" or "God is Neither a Republican nor a Democrat" or "Pollution is for Posers" or "Extinction is Mean" (I kind of like those last two, feel free to use them) Seriously, it is ok for Conservatives to care about social Justice issues too, its biblical.

We have a limited scope for many reasons.

We can't afford every kind of t-shirt we'd like to make. If we could, you might see some similar to the ones you mention, although we don't think they are as important. As long as our society has complacently agreed to allow the slaughter of 4,000 innocent American lives each day, that will be our a major focus. All of the issues you mentioned have to do with people who are living, we're dealing with an issue that talks about allowing those people into their very existence. Before a person can have aids, or be poor, or be enslaved or any of those things, they have to first be born. And I don't think you'd argue that those people who are suffering should be killed in the first place so they wouldn't live a life of suffering.

Killing a human being while it is still inside the mother is an evil crime that everyone should condemn – because it's destroying more than society, it's destroying the people who are the reason for that society. Our nation will be held accountable for allowing such an evil to exist when we have to power to stop it. I can assure you, a huge majority of people, Christians and non-Christians alike, would have voted for the abortion ban in South Dakota if a single photograph of this "simple surgery" was stapled beside the ballot! Talk about a truth that's offensive!

Yes, it is OK for conservatives and Christians of all kinds to care about social justice issues, and we do. But, do you want to be known for saving thousands of unborn lives, or thousands of trees and animals? What's more worth the effort? We have set our priorities on saving people that God has created in his image and don't yet have the chance to live in the real world.

"The Bible has 6 passages that talk about homosexuality and 0 that talk about abortion. Yet, there are entire books of the Bible devoted to protecting the widows and orphans. Passage after passage decries the fact that Israel neglected to do justice to the poor."

This sounds clever at first, but it really doesn't hold any water. If the number of citations about a topic was the order of importance God gave that particular subject, money and ceremonial laws wins hands down over about passages that talk about salvation.

Let me offer a solution: Could it be, that the reason God never included specific prohibitions on abortion is because it's a given? Is not the value of human life an assumption in all of Scripture? Did God not "form me in my mother's womb," and was not John the Baptist "filled with the holy spirit" before he was even born? Of course. Like I said, go on google and do an image search of "abortion," and you'll know it's wrong. People can understand that without even arguing, and people deserve that kind of credit for knowing.

People aren't as sensitive – especially in this day and age of speed and efficiency – towards caring for the elderly, the orphans, the widows, and the poor. That's because we can forget about them very easily. Those things are an active deed of goodness "Care for the poor," while abortion is an active deed of sin, "kill the unborn." Passivity should only be our enemy when it comes to the former – we should be active in caring for the forgotten, while passivity should be our friend when it comes to the unborn – let them be born!! Don't do anything! But instead, we find ourselves in a nation that shuns acts of terrorism, but commits acts of terror in the abortion clinic each day. Therefore, we find ourselves in a different situation than the ideal: we have to be active, not passive. We must do what we can to protect the unborn. If anyone had the ability to talk to a child before he was to be aborted, I'd love to hear the conversation and arguments in favor of taking that child's life for some other cause.

PS. I recommend that you change your "entrance requirements" to enter the web-site. No one except Jesus Christ himself can honestly answer the second question and still get in.

I'm not sure what you mean, history indicates that it's possible to answer these honestly. There are three questions to answer:

1. Are you ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
2. Are you completely available to God?
3. Do you believe that God can use you to change the world?

If you think the first one is impossible, that couldn't be true because Apostle Paul was "not ashamed of the gospel." So, there's at least one other person (and many martyrs would probably be in the same category as well).

If you believe only Christ can honestly answer "yes" to the second, I have a feeling Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and the thousands of missionaries around the world today who have left everything to follow Jesus would disagree. There truly are people completely available to God.

If the third, I know that's possible, because Joe would have given up this ministry years ago if he didn't truly believe God could use him to change the world.

Thank you for your feedback on Live Offensively Micah,

Best regards,

Sincerely Jamin Hubner.
Live Offensively for God Ministries.